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where does it lead?
1 comment:
a conversation inspired by this picture:
gregisit23 (5:51:33 PM): January 2009, that's awesome
linktoevj (5:51:48 PM): what are you talking about?
gregisit23 (5:52:01 PM): The first picture under "Pipe Dreams"
linktoevj (5:52:09 PM): oh yeah
linktoevj (5:52:25 PM): if only
linktoevj (5:52:31 PM): the democrats were that radical
gregisit23 (5:52:52 PM): Yes, I would love to live in a totalitarian marxist anti-utopia too.
gregisit23 (5:53:04 PM): I guess that's a distopia
linktoevj (5:53:12 PM): yeah, thats the word for it
linktoevj (5:53:36 PM): and you dont know that it'll be any more totalitarian than the current distopia is
gregisit23 (5:53:53 PM): Sure it will be,
linktoevj (5:53:54 PM): it just might be in our favor instead of in the favor of capital
linktoevj (5:54:42 PM): man, ive wasted my entire fucking day
gregisit23 (5:54:44 PM): Sure what proof do you have of that. Considering the history of marxist regimes it strikes me as a very risky proposition
linktoevj (5:55:06 PM): well, i didnt make a statement of fact.
linktoevj (5:55:36 PM): and there havent really been any marxist regimes. there have just been shitty regimes that claimed to be marxist
linktoevj (5:55:56 PM): i still say that had lenin not died, things would have been very different
linktoevj (5:56:17 PM): but we got stalin, and that ruined everything right there
gregisit23 (5:56:21 PM): Well all atempts seem to have been abysmil, if imperfet, failures
gregisit23 (5:57:05 PM): Is not your argument similar to the free market people who constantly yammer that if the economic problems of the world are all because the market is never 'free enough'
gregisit23 (5:57:10 PM): or imperfectly free
gregisit23 (5:57:30 PM): it seems like the opposite of a nasty coin.
linktoevj (5:58:15 PM): well
linktoevj (5:58:19 PM): i dunno about that
gregisit23 (5:58:20 PM): that is totaliterian on either side
linktoevj (5:58:53 PM): i dont know that ive really presented much of an argument for anything at this point
gregisit23 (5:58:59 PM): Well that's the logic of all failed ideologies, our ideology is right but it keep being applied incorrectly
linktoevj (5:59:43 PM): so whats the alternative? muddle through?
gregisit23 (5:59:55 PM): No I don't think so
gregisit23 (6:00:38 PM): If you want to improve things, starting with ideology strikes me as the wrong way to go.
linktoevj (6:01:42 PM): man, weve gotten a lot out of that little picture
gregisit23 (6:02:17 PM): Start with real, matirial issues, and work out ways that solve those problems. While keeping basic issues of fairness and freedom in mind
linktoevj (6:02:40 PM): isnt that what marx tried to do?
gregisit23 (6:02:52 PM): I think not.
gregisit23 (6:04:27 PM): Marx's overarching idea of class struggle, although an interesting and important way of anailzing social history, creates a conflict. Once that conflict turns away from practical use, to ideology it becomes toxic
linktoevj (6:04:54 PM): well, marx would never want theory to be diverced from practice
gregisit23 (6:05:05 PM): BUt is that not exactly what happened?
linktoevj (6:05:15 PM): right, post lenin
gregisit23 (6:05:40 PM): I don't know, the 'vanguard' sounds pretty dangerous to me
linktoevj (6:05:50 PM): its with stalin that you really see the more active cultivation of peronality cults
gregisit23 (6:06:14 PM): But it's not just stalin, Marx's theories lead to the same result all over the world
linktoevj (6:06:19 PM): the vanguard is more of a revolutionary leadership... it provides the theory for practice
gregisit23 (6:06:47 PM): How revolutionary is the vanguard if entrenches itself in the political institutions?
linktoevj (6:07:15 PM): it creates new political institutions
linktoevj (6:07:30 PM): direct democracy... a major component of communism - has to have institutions
linktoevj (6:07:49 PM): but more importantly, is it that marxist theory leads to totalitarianism
linktoevj (6:08:11 PM): or, that a certain type of individual will appropriate marxism - that marxism lends itself to appropriation
linktoevj (6:08:18 PM): by totalitarian-ists
gregisit23 (6:09:43 PM): Well, leaving the vanguard alone....
Is not the issue that Marxism is terribly suseptple to totalitarian manipulation. Even if he was exactly right, the theory can never be put into practice because it is suceptible to totalitarinism
linktoevj (6:10:22 PM): does that disqualify it necessarily?
gregisit23 (6:10:59 PM): Well yes, if, as you say theory and practice must not diverge. Since then the theory can never be practicly applied.
linktoevj (6:12:21 PM): ineresting. but dialectics necessitates change. theory and practice are also not set on an unchanging course
linktoevj (6:12:34 PM): rather, praxis is inherently reflexive and critical
linktoevj (6:12:57 PM): thats why marx talks about emminent critique
gregisit23 (6:14:00 PM): I completly agree!!! Marx is extreamly valuable as a critic but not so useful and perhaps even dangerous when we apply his proscriptions. As a critic he is unmatched.
linktoevj (6:15:25 PM): ok, well i think i can agree there. i mean, i dont think marx would say - if he were kickin it today - lets take what i wrote in 1867 and apply it to post industrial society
linktoevj (6:15:40 PM): so weve got to make some changes
gregisit23 (6:16:25 PM): clearly
linktoevj (6:16:32 PM): and of course marx also wrote that communism is going to go down in advanced industrial society, which has never happened. so its happened in backwards societies that didnt have democratic institutions - both of which are necessary, for marx
linktoevj (6:16:40 PM): and it failed
gregisit23 (6:16:57 PM): agreed there too
linktoevj (6:17:18 PM): well, in we only had 5 case studies of implementing capitalism in backwards nations, it would probably have failed in 5/5 times too
linktoevj (6:17:57 PM): and that's with industrial nations trying to make it happen, rather than trying to sabatoge progress at every opportunity
gregisit23 (6:18:18 PM): But again
linktoevj (6:18:19 PM): like they do to 'socialist' govts today
gregisit23 (6:18:27 PM): now your back to my original critique
linktoevj (6:18:47 PM): yeah, im all over the place
gregisit23 (6:18:56 PM): that you can't implement this shit, starting with an ideology, in this case free markets/capitalism
gregisit23 (6:19:05 PM): It doesn't work
gregisit23 (6:19:17 PM): you can't for Smith, just like you can't force marx
gregisit23 (6:19:22 PM): BUT...
linktoevj (6:19:25 PM): its not suppoed ot be implemented as an ideology
gregisit23 (6:20:03 PM): in ALL the places where marx has been tried totalitarianism is the result where as capitalism only sometimes results in totalitarinaism
linktoevj (6:21:14 PM): right, but im saying that you dont really have enough cases to derive a covering law
linktoevj (6:21:44 PM): especially given the extranious factors. the connection could be spurious
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